Raman Infrared Atmosphere Facebook Dialog with PhD Physicist

The following is a 'rapid fire' dialog I recently had with (theoretical physicist) Dr. Tom Rodolfo Lee and (award winning) graduate physicist Julian Ingham on the Albert Einstein Facebook site, from 20th of August 2017; before, and following the U.S.A. total eclipse . The dialog that reveals my complete theory and backing evidence on what I think is the incomplete infrared greenhouse theory of the atmosphere. In it I withstand, best I can, brutal rebuttals from scientists - experts - in their field. In the end they do not respond to my claims and evidence.

Ingham 29: "If your (unpublished, unreviewed) "research" is as coherent as your explanation of it, it's truly a shame that you'd throw your life away on such a waste of time. Go get a science degree then contribute something useful mate. Then again that might make you one of the "establishment" that is trying to cover up the "IR catastrophe" I guess ay"

Lee:30,31  "Well as a humble theoretical physicist It's my job to take all claims seriously if they could potentially have some merit. We know that CO2 is a greenhouse gas since there's overwhelming evidence for it, but it looks like Blair is claiming that N2 and O2 are also greenhouse gases...;Considering the amount of spectroscopic data available for these gases I would say that all of this physics is unambiguous and you'd have to be looney to claim that all previous experiments and theory are incorrect...."

"If that is the claim then I'd find it genuinely very interesting because it would be a NAture or Science article and would contradict very basic intuition that is taught in all physics training"

Macdonald 50: "You're busted and running. Bye."

 My claim and supporting evidence in short:
1) THE INFRARED CATASTROPHE (my words): Nitrogen (N2) and oxygen (O2) - 99% of the dry atmosphere -  are assumed non-greenhouse gases (non-GHGs) and are a key premise in greenhouse theory  (GH) as they do not, unlike the GHGs, absorb or emit infrared (IR) radiation. I claim this premise is a contradiction to both Quantum Mechanics (QM) and Thermodynamics (TD); where all matter - above absolute 0 Kelvin - radiates and interacts with infrared radiation (IR).

2) I claim - and can prove - the GHGs (CO2, methane -CH4, H20, and others) have been mistakenly interpreted, and are really only the thermo-electric (TE) gases, measured or detected by (early 19th Century technology) thermo-electric transducers (thermopiles and the like).

3) Quantum Mechanics reveals O2 and N2 also have vibrational frequencies (at wavenumbers 1556cm-1 and 2338cm-1 respectively) in the infrared range of the electromagnetic spectrum (EMS) , but as they have no electric dipole moment they are not thermo-electric frequencies: they do not generate electricity and so are not detected by IR (TE) detectors (2). To detect and measure these - and CO2's 1338cm, all of H2O's, and CH4's 2 (non-GHG) frequencies  - the 20th Century instrument 'Raman Laser Spectrometer' is required. Raman Spectrometer is the complementary instrument to IR (TE) spectroscopy and is widely used (by NASA, NOAA, and able to be used in the measurement of GHG concentrations!!) and is understood by all chemists and physicists.

4) As supporting experimental evidence to my claim, the report: Field Tests of a Laser Raman Measurement System for Aircraft Engine Exhaust Emissions reveals how N2's, O2's and CO2's temperature and constituent quantity are measured by Raman at the said frequencies, and are found to be equivalent! to IR (TE) measurements.

5) I claim the QM theory behind, and application of, the CO2 laser is evidence N2 emits and absorbs IR at the said frequencies. N2 absorbs when radiated (heated) by IR 'light'; and would not operate is it did not so. Here N2 is said to be  'metastable' (long lasting absorption) and is radiated by electrons to excite (heat) its 2338cm frequency to excite (heat!) CO2's close 2349cm frequency.
6) I conclude all gases in the atmosphere are GHGs; there are no special heat radiating/non radiating ones; they are only different by their respective heat capacities. There has been an oversight, followed by misconception, followed by massive extrapolation.

7) From my research I have discovered and hypothesis: black body radiation theory (black body spectrum) is outdated, and is incomplete due to its reliance and foundation upon 19th Century thermo-electrics only (as above). It has lead to contradictions and paradoxes revealed in the term emissivity.

1Blair Macdonald I wonder if Albert Einstein knew almost all the atmosphere defies quantum mechanics and thermodynamics in that it does not emit or absorb any IR radiation (AKA heat), at any temperature! - making it the only matter in the universe (save dark matter and dark energy) to not interact with light. The only saving grace is are the whinny whinny tinny, but very spicy CO2! It does all the work. Yet where the shadow of the eclipse falls, so does the temperature (but no radiation). What gives? I think we are still in the 'dark ages'

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 · 20 August at 03:25

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2Blair Macdonald And I have the answer.

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 · Reply · 20 August at 03:27

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3Tom Rodolfo Lee considering Albert Einstein published work on Rayleigh scattering in the atmosphere, yeah I'd say he knew CO2 absorbs in the IR..

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 · 20 August at 13:03

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4Blair Macdonald Tom Rodolfo Lee Well he, and all he was standing on - Stephan, Boltzmann etc -, made a mistake; or better said, what they did was incomplete and is outdated in the modern world.

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 · Reply · 20 August at 15:47

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5Julian Ingham "almost all the atmosphere doesn't interact with light" wtf are you on about mate? It does interact with light but as any kindergartener could tell you in a theory of electromagnetism and nonrelativistic scalars all interactions are irrelevant operators. This doesn't defy quantum mechanics it is a basic manifestation of it and the reason why the sky is blue (e.g. page 114 http://mcgreevy.physics.ucsd.edu/s15/215C-2015-lectures.pdf)

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 · 20 August at 17:21

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6Tom Rodolfo Lee lel

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 · Reply · 20 August at 17:26

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7Samuel Lee Julian Ingham Electromagnetism is the biggest scientific fraud since Piltdown man

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 · 20 August at 18:31

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8Julian Ingham Low energy Ken Wilson requires requires physical quantities to be insensitive to UV physics. I know more about UV physics than the generals, believe me.

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 · 20 August at 18:59

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9Blair Macdonald Julian Ingham IR photons are assumed not to interact with N2 and O2 which is (like I said) basically the total atmosphere. That is current greenhouse theory, and it is wrong.

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 · Reply · 20 August at 19:00

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10Blair Macdonald I don't understand any of this "Low energy Ken Wilson requires requires physical quantities to be insensitive to UV physics. I know more about UV physics than the generals, believe me." Ken Wilson ? 'generals'

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 · 20 August at 19:05

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11Blair Macdonald Samuel Lee and Julian "Electromagnetism is the biggest scientific fraud since Piltdown man"; what fallacy is that? Straw-man? What if I could show N2 and O2 have vibrational modes in the IR range of the EMS and detect them, and show they are used practically- would that be the discovery of the Century?

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 · Reply · 20 August at 19:18

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12Julian Ingham Blair the low energy and piltdown man comments weren't directed at you they were jokes about Trump/Stephen Crothers (a crackpot "physicist"). As for what silly comments you make, you need to google "Rayleigh scattering" -- whilst photons DO interact with atoms in the atmosphere, scattering is dominant in the UV. This is a calculation one can easily arrive at classically (get a copy of Jacksons electromagnetism out from your local library) or quantum mechanically using Wilsonian effective field theory (see my link above)

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 · Reply · 20 August at 20:04

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13Tom Rodolfo Lee popcorn time

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 · 20 August at 20:26

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14Blair Macdonald Julian Ingham IR is my business, I am solving the IR catastrophe, not the UV and I am playing with you, just for fun; testing my theory is water tight . IR: N2 and O2 you read up on Shrodinger predicted vibrational modes for N2 and O2 in the IR of the EMS. You'll see them at 2338cm and 1388cm respectively . Then learn about the Raman laser IR spectroscopy (not the atmospheric Raman effect, I'm good with that, and not Rayleigh). Who's Trump? Stephen??

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 · Reply · 20 August at 20:41

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15Julian Ingham Blair mate again haha you misunderstood the UV joke -- I was calling Ken Wilson "low energy" both in reference to the fact effective theory only makes low energy predictions and in reference to Donald Trumps jibe at Jeb Bush...UV physics is nonuniversal so isn't predicted by effective theory that's what I was joking about just never mind haahaha Samuel Lee lmao

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 · Reply · 20 August at 21:21

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16Julian Ingham I really don't understand what your problem with basic quantum mechanics is. Do you have a problem with the concept of Rayleigh scattering or not? If not then you appreciate that scattering of light by atoms favours high frequencies and that is why the sky is blue (most of the light the sky reflects is bluer because blue light has a higher frequency than red light)

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 · Reply · 20 August at 21:23

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17Julian Ingham like are you trying to say that raman scattering due to the vibrational modes of molecules means rayleigh scattering is a poor model for the interaction of light with the atmosphere? i suppose it depends on what observables you're talking about but like.....you realise that inelastic scattering is typically much much weaker than elastic scattering?? that's kind of like the main experimental hurdle with doing raman spectroscopy in general bro

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 · Reply · 20 August at 21:34

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18Tom Rodolfo Lee I don't know if Raman scattering is that small in the atmosphere, the excitation energies for rotational modes in diatomic molecules is typically 10meV or so

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 · Reply · 20 August at 22:27

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19Julian Ingham It's smaller than Rayleigh scattering though haha

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 · 20 August at 22:28

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20Blair Macdonald Julian Ingham "Julian Ingham IR is my business, I am solving the IR catastrophe, not the UV and I am playing with you, just for fun; testing my theory is water tight . IR: N2 and O2 you read up on Shrodinger predicted vibrational modes for N2 and O2 in the IR of the EMS. You'll see them at 2338cm and 1388cm respectively . Then learn about the Raman laser IR spectroscopy (not the atmospheric Raman effect, I'm good with that, and not Rayleigh). "

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 · Reply · Yesterday at 06:15

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21Blair Macdonald Tom Rodolfo Lee I said I am good with Raman and Rayleigh effects; its 'IR' Raman spectroscopy : watch and learn. It reveals N2 and O2s modes. They are greenhouse gases. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMLnUmbLwUI&t=433s

Vibrational Spectroscopy: IR vs. Raman

Inorganic Chemistry: Tutorial 1…

YOUTUBE.COM

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 · Reply · Remove Preview · Yesterday at 06:18

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22Tom Rodolfo Lee What's the IR "catastrophe"? And where is this research published?

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 · Reply · Yesterday at 09:09

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23Paul Enviro Solar Samuel Lee electromagnetism accounts for all chemistry and biology. Life itself must be the fraud. A basic electrical engine doesn't function without applying the principals. There would be no technological or mechanical advances without it. If its a fraud stay well away from your car.

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 · Yesterday at 13:30

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24Blair Macdonald It is my work, I am currently writing. It is my words, my name. It is what I have been saying/claiming: there is a contradiction to QM and TDs IR N2 and O2 (the atmosphere) and I offer a solution. It focuses on the non GHGs and why they are nonGHGs. There's been a mistake or oversight.

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 · Reply · Yesterday at 13:33

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25Paul Enviro Solar Blair Macdonald http://www.sciencescene.com/.../The%20Green%20House... Basic stuff how do you think you experience differences in temperature if the atmosphere doesn't absorb heat?

The Green house effect

The greenhouse effect is the process in which the emission of infrared radiation by the…

SCIENCESCENE.COM

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 · Reply · Yesterday at 13:42

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26Paul Enviro Solar http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-heat-capacity...

Specific Heat and Individual Gas Constant of Gases

Specific heat at constant volume, specific…

ENGINEERINGTOOLBOX.COM

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 · Yesterday at 13:56

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27Paul Enviro Solar All molecules absorb heat at difference rates. None of our sciences technologies or measurements would be possible without accurate known properties or ranges for this effect.

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 · Yesterday at 13:58

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28Julian Ingham Mate you're not playing with me you're sounding off a bunch of crap haha. Also I know more than enough about Raman spectroscopy as my earlier comment indicated, but you've offered zero explanation of how inelastic scattering of photons is at all relevant to anything that invalidates climate science. No one assumes inelastic scattering doesn't exist just that it is smaller than elastic scattering.

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 · Reply · Yesterday at 17:17 · Edited

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29Julian Ingham If your (unpublished, unreviewed) "research" is as coherent as your explanation of it, it's truly a shame that you'd throw your life away on such a waste of time. Go get a science degree then contribute something useful mate. Then again that might make you one of the "establishment" that is trying to cover up the "IR catastrophe" I guess ay

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 · Yesterday at 17:16 · Edited

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30Tom Rodolfo Lee Well as a humble theoretical physicist It's my job to take all claims seriously if they could potentially have some merit. We know that CO2 is a greenhouse gas since there's overwhelming evidence for it, but it looks like Blair is claiming that N2 and O2 are also greenhouse gases...

It is true that there is a nonzero absorption cross section in the IR for diatomic molecules but this is a second order (Raman) process that involves virtual excitation of electronic states. There are simply no transitions that can be involved in IR absorption. The standard undergraduate explanation is that diatomic molecules don't have a dipole moment so the low-lying vibrational and rotational modes aren't excited by photons. You need an intermediate excited state which makes the cross section very small. On the other hand gases like H2O, CO2 , CH4 etc have dipole moments along their bonds and their rotational and vibrational states can be excited by photons, this is why they absorb in the IR. Considering the amount of spectroscopic data available for these gases I would say that all of this physics is unambiguous and you'd have to be looney to claim that all previous experiments and theory are incorrect.

So as far as I can tell the only remaining possible claim is that for kinematic reasons diatomic molecules can contribute significantly to warming despite the small cross section for Raman processes. Is that what you're claiming Blair?

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 · Yesterday at 18:31

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31Tom Rodolfo Lee If that is the claim then I'd find it genuinely very interesting because it would be a NAture or Science article and would contradict very basic intuition that is taught in all physics training

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 · Yesterday at 18:33

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32Blair Macdonald Tom Rodolfo Lee Okay, what I have deduced is: what we call IR spectroscopy should be correctly termed thermo-electric (TE) spectroscopy from the fact they use thermo-electric transducers - via the 1828 Seebeck Effect. Transducers being the key word. This is what Tyndall used in 1859. From this the so called GHGs, I deduce, should be are correctly termed the TE gases: as they really only generate an Electro Motive Force (EMF), AKA electricity, from their 'dipoles' (their ELECTRIC dipole moments). That is my claim. TE (thermopiles and the like) are 19th Century technology; they do show the TE/IR modes, but they do not show all as they were developed before QM, Raman effect, and the modern laser. With QMs, Raman effect, and Lasers we now have Raman Spectroscopy: the complement to IR (TE) spectroscopy (as shown in clip), and it reveals (with the laser) the 'hidden' QM predicted modes of N2, O2, CH4, H2O, and CO2 (and more) that are also in the IR range of the EMS that IR/TE spectroscopy does not. N2 at 2338cm and O2 at 1556 and CO2 at 1388. Remember, spectroscopy is the study of light and its interaction with matter. QM predicts all the modes, and it does too N2 and O2. If you wish; and I insist, I can show you, and prove to all I am right by experiment and application of this QM knowledge (I would put my life on it; actually we all do) ; but before I do, know that modern Raman spectrometers can measure everything the IR/TE spectrometer can: temperature of the molecule and quantity of gas, and they do this by measuring the excitation of the molecule. Please do not lead me off on Red Hearings; if you want the experiment (paper) let me know. Thank for your interest: that is science, and I respect that. We need to find where I am wrong; because if this is right, this will be the greatest upset in the history of science and I am not sure I want that. Blair

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33Blair Macdonald Tom Rodolfo Lee By the way; in my research I also learnt, to my shock and horror, Stefan and Boltzmann used thermopiles in their black body theory: if I am right, radiation theory will need reviewed and updated. The uncomfortable and 'arm waving' emissivity will go, and be explained as a correction for the TE properties of a substance: with this I can explain the contradictions it presents (shiny metals, and high values for water and snow for instance). But please, one thing at a time.

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34Tom Rodolfo Lee Do you have a concrete prediction? What is this "greatest upset in the history of science" that you are referring to?

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 · Reply · 21 hrs

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35Blair Macdonald Prediction: I had to think for a moment. Yes: if N2 in isolation is radiated with IR light, its temperature will increase proportional to its excitation. The same goes for O2 and for CO2s 1388! I can show you an experiment where we can measure the temperature (the excitation) of CO2 without and IR (TE) detectors, and the two (IR and Raman Laser) equivalent. They upset: greenhouse theory. Our understanding of present, past and future climate (and weather).

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 · Reply · 14 hrs

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36Tom Rodolfo Lee  Blair what you are saying is not particularly interesting or exciting. The interaction between matter and radiation is the most well understood and accurate scientific theory of all time. It's the basis for our most accurate atomic clocks.

With your example, if you radiate N2 and O2 with IR light, yes there will be absorption due to coupling with the electric quadrupole moment of the radiation. However the number of molecules that can be excited will be very small, since there is no dipole absorption (dipole transitions are forbidden by conservation of parity). This experiment has probably been done before. Do you have access to physics journals? I can try to find an article for you.

What matters in the atmosphere is the absorption cross section since it determines how transparent N2 and O2 are to IR radiation. I suspect that the corresponding optical depth may be dozens of kilometres, because Planck's constant is very small and the speed of light is very large. If that is the case then N2 and O2 will not be absorbers in the IR. On the other hand heteronuclear molecules will have dipole moments along their bonds so they can absorb dipole radiation and that is why they are opaque to IR radiation. Have you done this calculation? You need to know the multipole components of electromagnetic radiation in the atmosphere and the matrix elements of the transitions.

The lesson here, in your language I guess, is that spectroscopy does not just depend on the frequency of the transitions but also the probability of the transition, which can be strongly suppressed by factors of Planck's constant and the speed of light when you are looking at multipole transitions. By the way this has nothing to do with Raman.

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 · 10 hrs

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37Tom Rodolfo Lee I just found some lecture notes from a quantum mechanics course that show that indeed O2 has some absorption lines in the IR for atmospheric conditions but the width of the lines is so small that the corresponding spectral weight is negligible in comparison to the greenhouse gases. This is probably because of the reasons I mentioned above.

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 · Reply · 9 hrs

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38Blair Macdonald Tom Rodolfo Lee Tom, are you a Professor or PhD, or ? Just want to check who I am working with.

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 · Reply · 8 hrs

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39Tom Rodolfo Lee Yes I have a PhD in physics

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 · Reply · 7 hrs

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40Blair Macdonald You say: " what (I) am saying is not particularly interesting or exciting" The arrogance! I am only claiming GH theory is wrongly neglecting N2 and O2 (and the other Raman Modes, CO2 mainly ) and have said with them included (which I can prove, but have not yet done so) will collapse the current standard model of the atmosphere - not interesting or exciting! Then "The interaction between matter and radiation is the most well understood and accurate scientific theory of all time. It's the basis for our most accurate atomic clocks" Here you are committing logical fallacies; (possibly straw-man, definitely red hearing, and possibly fallacy of composition ) and you continue to do so with your other attempts of refuting my claim. QM is not at all at risk; I am using QM to complete, or augment, our understanding of the atmosphere. I am saying atmospheric theory needs updating. You appear not to be acknowledging established theory, principles and application in modern (Raman) spectroscopy which is based on QM and (its) Laser. This is the right place (page) to talk about laser and QM. I will show you my proof, but first do you agree N2, O2, and CO2 have (Raman Active) modes at 2338, 1556 and 1388 cm-1 respectively. If yes, I will show you a proof by application QM theory N2 Radiates; and then I will show you another, and one other after that. By the way; some modes are both Raman and thermoelectric (in H20 and CH4 and others). Please reply to yes or no. Sorry about the delays, busy days just now.

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 · Reply · 3 hrs

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41Blair Macdonald https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhyEY0Ddwz4&t=11s... Here is the application of thermo-electric transducers used in 'IR' cameras: not detecting liquid nitrogen. The reason: there is no EMF produced by N2 and O2 at any temperature. But this does not mean the shown N2 does not have a temperature (above 0K). I look forward to your 'yes'.

Liquid Nitrogen Transparent on Thermal…

YOUTUBE.COM

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 · Reply · Remove Preview · 3 hrs · Edited

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42Julian Ingham I don't think you know what a strawman is mate hahaha saying we understand optical physics well is definitely not one

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 · Reply · 2 hrs

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43Blair Macdonald Paul Enviro Solar I think you misunderstand my theory; I turn it back on you: how do you think you experience differences in temperature if the atmosphere doesn't absorb heat - only 1 or 2 percent of it does? My answer is it does absorb and emit: N2 and O2 are GHGs just as Fourier implied. N2 and O2 absorb and emit in the IR range of the EMS. It was Tyndall who got us off track with his experiment, N2 and O2 are not detected; but they are now by laser Raman. I complete Fourier's work, after 200 odd years. Are you a PhD also?

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 · Reply · 2 hrs

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44Tom Rodolfo Lee If you're arguing that O2 and N2 have transitions in the IR, well that is very well known. They're electric quadrupole transitions. If you want to show that they lead to warming in the atmosphere then you need to calculate the probability of absorption. There is no great mystery about why O2 and N2 don't absorb IR in the atmosphere. It has nothing to do with Raman or whatever, it's just that these processes are kinematically suppressed.

I've tried to help you here by pointing out what is standard and known at the undergraduate level for an understanding of quantum mechanics and molecular transitions. If you're genuinely concerned that you've made a huge discovery that'll upset science or whatever, then you won't get anywhere unless you convince people to listen. Maybe your ideas have some merit, maybe they don't. But so far you've provided me with a prediction of your theory which is trivial and it appears that it's well studied.

Can you provide me with an experimental prediction that is not already known and would violate common intuition or textbook theory? If you can produce a prediction, perhaps you could ask some experimentalists to verify it and collect your Nobel prize or whatever.

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 · Reply · 2 hrs

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45Blair Macdonald Paul Enviro Solar On specific heat capacities: Yes, this is part of my proof, N2 and O2 have SHCs and these values are determined by the vibrational behaviour of the molecule. If they had no absorption or emit they would have a 0 SHC.

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 · Reply · 2 hrs

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46Blair Macdonald Tom Rodolfo Lee In the Report 'FIELD TESTS OF A LASER RAMAN MEASURE- MENT SYSTEM FOR AIRCRAFT ENGINE EXHAUST EMISSIONS' Raman Spectrometers are used measure temperature, concentration (and more) of N2 O2 and CO2. Remember, Raman cannot 'see' IR, but as they explain, their measurement are equivalent (the same) only they use the 1388 mode. They know all about the atmosphere by Raman spectroscopy (RS) and this is why RS is the instrument of choice on solar system space probes. I will try and message it to you as they have taken it sadly down. Here is the abstract: Laser induced Raman and fluorescent measurements were made in the
exhaust of a T53-L13A gas turbine engine with a new field portable instrument
devised specifically for gas turbine exhaust emission measurements. The gas
turbine exhaust was analyzed by conventional instruments for CO, CO 2 , NO, NO x ,
total hydrocarbons, smoke and temperature, and these data were used as a
"calibration" standard for the evaluation of the laser Raman instrument. Results
thus far indicate good correlations for CO 2 , O 2 , smoke, hydrocarbons and
temperature. The instrument was not sensitive enough for NO detection but the
data analysis indicates that 100 ppm may be detectable with instrument improve-
ments. CO analysis was not attempted, but it is expected that CO could be
detected with further research. NO;; (or NOx) was not attempted because
theoretical and expeiimental laboratory analysis indicated severe lalt rierc.i^e
with CO Z . The most severe problem area was laser induced hydrocarbon
fluorescence when the exhaust contained large total hydrocarbon concentrations.
The overall conclusion was that the laser Raman method shows a good potential
for aircraft gas turbine emission analysis.

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 · Reply · 2 hrs

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47Blair Macdonald I have to go out to tea now. Will be back with another independent proof: that N2 and or O2 in isolation emit and radiate at there said IR modes 2338 and 1556

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 · Reply · 2 hrs

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48Tom Rodolfo Lee I've already said that N2 and O2 absorb in the IR, in a gas the probability of absorption will be kinematically supressed. Do you disagree with that?

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 · Reply · 1 hr

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49Tom Rodolfo Lee You know what, never mind. All the best with your "theories."

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50Blair Macdonald You're busted and running. Bye.

51Blair Macdonald Dr. Lee before we go, my all time favourite, and what better place to share this on Albert Einstein 's page, the laser. The CO2 laser. Here N2 is radiated by electron at its 2338 mode !! and this excites CO2's ('IR') 2349 mode!! Figure that. Nitrogen is said to be metastable, it radiates for long 'time', and this is also knowledge used and understood independently in astronomy.

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 · Reply · 11 hrs

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52Tom Rodolfo Lee I just don't understand why you keep telling me that N2 and O2 radiate and absorb in the IR.

I've already told you, this is an extremely well known fact that is taught to undergraduates. N2 and O2 have electric quadrupole transitions. No one is saying they don't. You don't need to keep repeating this to people as if it's some fundamental new discovery.

You've told me that the grand prediction of your theory is that if you radiate O2 and N2 with certain frequencies in the IR range, they will heat up. Yes, they will. We know that. You don't have to keep yelling. All this is known. If you use google you could probably find several lecture notes that go through this. They could probably also ask you to calculate the cross section for the direct quadrupole transition, for Raman, etc, etc. A slightly harder task- and one that I wouldn't be able to do in my head - is to calculate the spectral weight of the absorption line for the atmosphere. However, it can be done and if you had the proper training in physics you could possibly do that calculation yourself and hopefully it should agree with the textbook. If it doesn't agree, then I'd say there is a huge probability of error on your part. This is basic physics, yes it may be interesting to some people like yourself, but it is all very well known, I assure you. You would not be able to have a career doing quantum mechanics without knowing this stuff.

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 · 11 hrs

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53Blair Macdonald Dr Lee, theoretical physicist you claim you are; your tact in argument and is akin to a creationist claiming the 'big bang' after the evidence for it has been found. Oh, we knew that all along. You claim: 'I've already said that N2 and O2 absorb in the IR' but only after I set the pace, revealing QM modes, Raman spectroscopy (which you seem to know nothing much about). Shame on you. What would Galileo make of you? What would Professor Einstein indeed? Positivism! The infrared catastrophe still stands. Good luck with your 1% (gases).

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 · Reply · 11 hrs

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54Blair Macdonald No, it is not common knowledge. Nobody combines 'IR' TE with Raman spectroscopy to describe the greenhouse effect. If they did there'd be no debate. No issue. GH theory relies on the premise the non GHGs do not emit or radiate. You've now said they do.

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55Tom Rodolfo Lee But we did know this all along. It's in the textbooks and it's taught in quantum mechanics classes. It was actually in one of my exams when I was an undergraduate. Like I said, if you don't believe me either open a textbook on quantum chemistry, or if ...See more

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56Blair Macdonald Do you know something; it is possible to use Raman Spec to measure the Keeling curve. Can you believe it; all based on the same principles and the Jet exhaust experiment

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57Blair Macdonald Raman LIDAR; it measures the temperature of N2 and O2 in the lower thermosphere, to a temperature of around 2500K Amazing! Raman Laser Spectroscopy is the instrument of the 20th and 21th Century. IR the 19th

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58Tom Rodolfo Lee Here are some lecture notes on it: https://www.researchgate.net/file.PostFileLoader.html...

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59Blair Macdonald Tom Rodolfo Lee I will read this, and I will be searching for key words N2 O2 2338 1556 absorption bands in the IR atmosphere. I'll get back to you.

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60Tom Rodolfo Lee I suggest you have a read, calculate the quadrupole transition amplitudes - not an easy task - and then try to calculate the spectral line for absorption of O2 and N2 in the atmosphere. People have already calculated/measured it and it seems to be negligible. I could be wrong, it's not a trivial calculation, but we know that it will be significantly smaller than CO2 and other heteronuclear molecules because of the forbidden dipole transition. That's why O2 and N2 are not greenhouse gases.

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61Tom Rodolfo Lee If you don't want to do the calculation yourself maybe just look at these other lecture notes:
http://irina.eas.gatech.edu/EAS8803_Fall2009/Lec6.pdf...See more

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62Blair Macdonald Calculations or not; this presents a paradox. N2 cannot absorb (or if it does, as you claim, it is low) then why thermosphere, the CO2 laser, and why does it cool off at solar eclipse totallity (where I started) if the air is a very poor conductor of heat. How is it 'warm' and not radiate; nothing does that. Everything radiates heat.

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63Blair Macdonald Got to go, late here, cheers. B

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64Julian Ingham ^and a good thing too, otherwise we'd be needing much stronger AC to deal with the heating the earth would experience. Parity conservation, the unsung savior of all life: Thanks parity conservation!

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65Tom Rodolfo Lee I've changed my mind. Blair is clearly a genius with a mind comparable to Einstein, Planck and Boltzmann. Blair your revolutionary ideas need to be published. I suggest writing a manuscript and sending it to Science magazine. Here is their website:

http://www.sciencemag.org/aut.../science-information-authors

I am confident that your work will pass peer review, since you seem to be much more qualified than people who have earned doctorates and work professionally as researchers in quantum mechanics. After the publication of your groundbreaking research, I am sure you will be approached by several publishers to author a textbook on the basics of quantum mechanics, since all the current ones are wrong.

I wish you the best of luck.

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66Blair Macdonald Your researchgate link. I reference this in my work, I don't think you have read it. It totally destroys your rebuttal; is this all you have?Table 9.7 shows the predicted QM wavenumbers of N2 and O2 (and doesn't mention Raman spectroscopy); and pg 360 clearly describes and sets the stage of the IR paradox or catastrophe and is in my introduction: "Homonuclear diatomic molecules have no dipole allowed vibrational-rotational spectra. This
means they do not absorb or emit radiation on
transitions within the same electronic state. They
may have very weak quadrupole transitions.
Note:
The molecules N2 and O2, which represent the major
constituents of our atmosphere, cannot absorb the infrared
radiation emitted by the earth. Other molecules,
such as CO2, H2O, NH3 and CH4 do have an electric
dipole moment and absorb infrared radiation on their
numerous vibrational-rotational transitions. Although
they are present in our atmosphere only in small concentrations
they can seriously perturb the delicate energy
balance between absorbed incident sun radiation and
the energy radiated back into space by the earth (greenhouse
effect). If their concentration is increased by only
small amounts this can increase the temperature of the
atmosphere at the earth’s surface (greenhouse effect)"

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67Blair Macdonald Thank you for your 'support', but I have a good eye for sarcasm when I see it; the give away ' will pass peer review', no it will not. No one enjoys my theory (theories) and discoveries; not the climate skeptics either (that's a good thing). On 'a mind comparable to Einstein, Planck and Boltzmann': I was thinking more like Kepler and Galileo as I feel like a heretic in this current world. I do though have a theory that explains QM (wave particle duality, etc..) with cosmological conjectures and observations. I can explain Hubble expansion, accelerated 'dark energy' and inflationary expansion and more. My theory matches observation and would unify and complete Albert Einsteins life work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoTEwZ-pTtk It also unifies QM to our reality: we are waves and we are 'particles, just a posited by de Broglie. I have posited the economics demand curve is the de Broglie wave function. I think we are finished here, you have helped me to cover more of the 'traps' and you have offered some knew ones, that's good, but like others you seem are stuck in the past defending the status quo. That is not science: you might want to question whether you are really a scientist, and what science is. How many times did Einstein shift his thinking with the new 'facts'. Hubble for one. And remember Alberts famous words: " it would only take one". So far, with the atmosphere, I am not that "one".

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68Blair Macdonald Tom Rodolfo Lee, it's not finished, what does it leave us with? GHGs that 'hold up' the thermal atmosphere - 1%!, and CO2 0.04%. Can you make a prediction, with your law of heat trapping CO2; CO2 and temperature? So to speak, 'hot and spicy CO2 adds no flavour in any other cake it's add to'. It's temperature benign - everywhere (of course) other than the climate. It doesn't even factor in met. weather theory. I did commercial pilot met theory, no CO2 there. Oh, on that, do you know they are going to us Raman Laser on aircraft to detect high altitude CAT - because it detects water movements. CO2 has no thermal utility: there is not market for it, and animals and plants don't use it for its 'spicy' properties. It doesn't factor in plate tectonics where it is sub ducted in extremely high temperature and concentrations (water does); Snow pack avalanche stability, it is there x10 more than in the air, it does not factor and is not measured, IT SHOULD BE, lives would depend on it and this knowledge; respiration: the nose has evolved to moderate temperature in all mammals; it's water, and not CO2 that 'traps the heat'. You are no more than a snake salesman.You are party to selling a story, a myth, superstition, exploiting CO2's properties, and now its thermoelectric properties - of a invisible gas; Dr Lee, that is fraud. You should call it the Jesus or god gas, or just the magic gas.